Not so "Top Drawer"

topic posted Mon, August 10, 2009 - 9:59 AM by  offlineKrampus
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Males Of High Genetic Quality Are Not Very Successful At Fertilizing Eggs
www.sciencedaily.com/release...1458.htm

ScienceDaily (Aug. 8, 2009) — Contrary to predictions, males of high genetic quality are not very successful when it comes to fertilizing eggs. A new study on seed beetles by Swedish and Danish scientists Göran Arnqvist and Trine Bilde shows that when a female mates with several males, the males of low genetic quality are the most successful in fertilizing eggs.
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Krampus
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  • Re: Not so "Top Drawer"

    Fri, August 14, 2009 - 11:07 AM
    They are not less-successful, they are more picky. Just like humans are.
    The more genetically trasher the trash is, the more it tries to distribute itself around. I.E., ones are calmly aware of their importance and just rest on the laurels, the others, (in regression of their material more and more), become more and more active in distributing their not-so-good-stuff to as many opportunities as they can find; (perhaps, in an attempt to somewhat better it - mix it with better one(s)).
    Hence, the seeming "lead".

    • Re: Not so "Top Drawer"

      Sat, August 15, 2009 - 6:33 AM
      "They are not less-successful, they are more picky. Just like humans are.
      The more genetically trasher the trash is, the more it tries to distribute itself around. I.E., ones are calmly aware of their importance and just rest on the laurels, the others, (in regression of their material more and more), become more and more active in distributing their not-so-good-stuff to as many opportunities as they can find; (perhaps, in an attempt to somewhat better it - mix it with better one(s)).
      Hence, the seeming "lead". "

      How do you get that from the paper that was posted?
      What the authors appear to be saying (it's always a little hard to tell from an article in the press rather than the actual research) is that in these beetles there is no apparent cryptic female choice that would offset the potential dangers to females of multiple mating. It would be interesting to see if they found evidence of sperm competition or if there actually *are* any dangers to females from multiple matings in this species.
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: Not so "Top Drawer"

        Sat, August 15, 2009 - 9:52 AM
        the article and thus implying the research itself is I would aver boardering on eugenics...

        the term >>males of high genetic quality<< is incredible loaded........

        after all what is "genetic quality"? difficult to define in beetles but in humans? Hollywood wives or trailer trash? caucasian or afro? ,,
        oohhh such a dangerous place to walk..

        personally I don't think that a set of genes can be regarded as having a 'higher quality' than another set without being very specific as to what that quality was... generalizations to the contrary reveal nothing and are perhaps looking to re-inforce more sinister prejudices...

        regards

        gm23
        • Re: Not so "Top Drawer"

          Sat, August 15, 2009 - 12:15 PM
          "the article and thus implying the research itself is I would aver boardering on eugenics... "

          Um...why?
          This is the abstract of the actual paper (I'm at home right now so I can't access the full text):

          "Postmating Sexual Selection Favors Males That Sire Offspring with Low Fitness
          Trine Bilde, Anne Foged, Nadia Schilling, Göran Arnqvist

          Despite the costs of mating, females of most taxa mate with multiple males. Polyandrous females are hypothesized to gain genetic benefits for their offspring, but this assumes paternity bias favoring male genotypes that enhance offspring viability. We determined net male genetic effects on female and offspring fitness in a seed beetle and then tested whether fertilization success was biased in favor of high-quality male genotypes in double mating experiments. Contrary to expectations, high-quality male genotypes consistently had a lower postmating fertilization success in two independent assays. Our results imply that sexually antagonistic adaptations have a major and unappreciated influence on male postmating fertilization success. Such genetic variation renders indirect genetic benefits an unlikely driver of the evolution of polyandry."


          The point the paper is making is that there is a conflict of interests between the male and female--it is in the females interests to select the sperm she wants to fertilize her eggs to maximize their fitness and therefore her own, and it is in the male's interests to have his sperm fertilize the eggs regardless of whether or not it maximizes the fitness of the offspring. In the case of these beetles, the males appear to have the upper hand in the "arms race" at this time. Personally I think the authors have overstated their conclusion. The evolution of polyandry is likely to involve a complex and dynamic shifting adaptive landscape in which male fitness, female fitness, and sexual parasites are all concerned. No snapshot of a system at a single moment in time is likely to resolve that satisfactorily.
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            Re: Not so "Top Drawer"

            Sat, August 15, 2009 - 6:58 PM
            hi lenny,

            you ask why do I claim the article boarders on eugenics?

            simply as stated the loose term of genetic quality..

            I would question the use of quality in this generic way and would aver that ‘trait’ is a far more apt term when discussing genetics. A good example can be seen in herbicide resistance where prolonged use of herbicide leads to the selection of resistant strains which are more fit in a herbicide environment. However in the absence of herbicide the non-resistant genotypes are more fit. These are not though ‘genetic qualities’ but environmental qualities conferred by genetic traits.

            Outside of very specific purposes quality is a very difficult attribute to describe and is broadly defined as 'Fit for Purpose' ... thus when used without a specific purpose, the term is loaded.. it implies one is superior in all aspects over another... it's very much open to interpretation… thus dangerous ground to tread upon. The early Darwinists were regularly accused of it, often quite justifiably, as is anyone who chooses to claim that one can sort any organism into high and low genetic quality groups...and if you can do it with one organism you can do it with all; including Man.. so potentially very dangerous ground to walk down. The clue is very much in the choice of language and it’s a good reason to agree with you that the authors have possible jumped to a conclusion.

            It should be remembered that my reply had been in the context of the article, not the original paper which you note is not freely available.

            Finally I'm rather tired of Serges insults and outbursts, which are nothing but pure vile and don’t belong here or in any tribe thread; I trust the moderator will take appropriate action... I myself am no longer prepared to respond or lower myself to his level.

            regards

            gm23
            • Re: Not so "Top Drawer"

              Sat, August 15, 2009 - 9:20 PM
              "you ask why do I claim the article boarders on eugenics?
              simply as stated the loose term of genetic quality.. "

              It was the term used in the actual paper, where it was measured in the only currency that matters in evolutionary terms--fitness:
              "We determined net male genetic effects on female and offspring fitness in a seed beetle and then tested whether fertilization success was biased in favor of high-quality male genotypes in double mating experiments."
              • Unsu...
                 

                Re: Not so "Top Drawer"

                Sun, August 16, 2009 - 3:58 AM
                hi lenny,

                although I think I answered your question perhaps you could share how you would apply genetic quality to humans without providing a psedo science case for racism and prejudice...

                this is the road you walk when you refuse to make proper ethical distinctions.....

                am I to also assume that the moderator is to take no action against Serges remarks are are they an example of these high quality genes in action?

                regards

                gm23
                • Unsu...
                   

                  Re: Not so "Top Drawer"

                  Sun, August 16, 2009 - 4:05 AM
                  just to add....

                  Eugenics... (from wikki en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics)

                  >>As a social movement eugenics reached its height of popularity in the early decades of the 20th century. By the end of World War II eugenics had been largely abandoned,[3] though current trends in genetics have raised questions amongst critical academics concerning parallels between pre-war attitudes about eugenics and current "utilitarian" and social darwinistic theories[4]. At its pre-war zenith, the movement often pursued pseudoscientific notions of racial supremacy and purity.[5]

                  Eugenics was practiced around the world and was promoted by governments, and influential individuals and institutions. Its advocates regarded it as a social philosophy for the improvement of human hereditary traits through the promotion of higher reproduction of certain people and traits, and the reduction of reproduction of certain people and traits.[6]

                  Today it is widely regarded as a brutal movement which inflicted massive human rights violations on millions of people.<<<

                  regards

                  gm23
                • Re: Not so "Top Drawer"

                  Sun, August 16, 2009 - 7:26 AM
                  "although I think I answered your question perhaps you could share how you would apply genetic quality to humans without providing a psedo science case for racism and prejudice...
                  this is the road you walk when you refuse to make proper ethical distinctions....."

                  Ethics doesn't enter into it, and absolutely SHOULDN"T. Science is descriptive, not prescriptive, and must be free of ideology. There is no ethical value assigned to genetic quality, it's significance is functional and contextual, not ethical. And there is absolutely nothing here that supports any notions of racism. Race is a social construct--the coincidental correlation between the geographic distribution of traits on which race is delineated and a few other traits can be a medically useful accident, but the traits assort independently from those used to delineate race and race is not biologically meaningful. Even if it were, (and it isn't!), this would not automatically support notions of eugenics--the relative *value* of the worth of individual human life, dignity, self-determination, liberty, etc vs benefit to the species as a whole is an ethical question completely separate from the science and it very much should remain so.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Unsu...
                     

                    Re: Not so "Top Drawer"

                    Sun, August 16, 2009 - 7:55 AM
                    serriously lenny?

                    you hold this view???

                    >>Ethics doesn't enter into it<<

                    ethics is the very foundation of science and fortunately the vast majority of scientist agree.... hence the huge arguments over stem cell research...

                    well whilst I wish you well I hope you don't carry some genetic trait that one day others see as something worth eradicating....

                    similarly does no one else here hold a view?

                    regards

                    gm23
                    • Re: Not so "Top Drawer"

                      Sun, August 16, 2009 - 8:15 AM
                      "serriously lenny?
                      you hold this view??? "

                      Yes I do.

                      "ethics is the very foundation of science and fortunately the vast majority of scientist agree.... hence the huge arguments over stem cell research..."

                      Ethics is absolutely and unequivocally NOT the foundation of science. The only ethical considerations involved arise in the area of treatment of test subjects, and those are not part of the science per se.

                      "well whilst I wish you well I hope you don't carry some genetic trait that one day others see as something worth eradicating...."

                      This would be an ethical consideration, not a scientific one (unless the science behind it were bogus). Even if science days that I have a gene that is detrimental and would be best for the human gene pool not to have it passed on, what to do with that information is an ethical question, the knowlede itself is not. There is no automatic route from "is" to "aught" and stifling research for ideological reasons is essentially Lysenkoism . It produces shit science.
                    • Re: Not so "Top Drawer"

                      Sun, August 16, 2009 - 8:39 AM
                      "hence the huge arguments over stem cell research..."

                      Greenman, I think someone has misinformed you regarding who's "arguing" over stem cell research. It's not scientists and it's only a big drama in the US, most of the rest of the world is busy doing stem cell research while American scientists are restricted from doing research into potentially lifesaving medical innovations due to the objections of American Christian Fundmentalists and other generally anti-science types. Religion does tend to kill innovation - orthodox/fundamentalist types anyway.

                      Certainly in medical science, ethics is an important consideration since medicine deals directly with humans in life and death situations (and everything in between). Of course, what's being discussed here isn't medical science (so perhaps that's what you're finding confusing). Social values and ethics obviously play a role in defining medical ethics, they're not created in a vacuum (though they do tend to be based more in physical than "moral" realities since the job of medicine is to deal with physical reality). Embryonic stem cell research isn't considered unethical according to science, only according to religion and only in highly orthodox/radical theocracies (such as the US has been for the past 8 years and may or may not continue to be).

                      We already - in wealthy nations, including the US - screen for certain genetic conditions. You seem to be a bit confused about what stem cell research actually is all about if you think it's the same as prenatal disease or genetic screening!
                      • This post was deleted by Greg
                      • Re: Not so "Top Drawer"

                        Mon, August 17, 2009 - 8:07 PM
                        <Embryonic stem cell research isn't considered unethical according to science, only according to religion and only in highly orthodox/radical theocracies (such as the US has been for the past 8 years and may or may not continue to be). >

                        I would like to hear the scientific theory that suggest that adult life is more valuable to society then the embryo, it must be facinating reading.
                        • Re: Not so "Top Drawer"

                          Tue, August 18, 2009 - 7:17 AM
                          John - Clearly you're approaching this from a religious perspective if you think science assigns value to embryo and adult lives based on "more valuable to society" (apparently you've got your "Death Panel" talking points confused with your anti-choice ones) and this is your talking point/belief about science and stem cell research. Since that's the case and you present yourself in this tribe as an anonymous entity with no friends and a big bag of ignorance about and prejudice against science - rather than someone willing to openly stand up for and by their beliefs - I see no point in entering into a discussion with you (or anyone who looks to Palin as their ethical compass) based on orthodox/fundamentalist religious morality (and the desire to control other people's bodies and actions so common amongst orthodox and fundamentalist sects from Christianity to Islam).

                          I must say, I do find it interesting that you're a member of an evolution tribe when you're pushing Christian Fundie talking points which are clearly ignorant regarding science and biology (both integral to the study of evolution).
                          • Re: Not so "Top Drawer"

                            Tue, August 18, 2009 - 1:23 PM
                            "John - Clearly you're approaching this from a religious perspective"

                            I thought he was being sarcastic/facetious!
                            • Re: Not so "Top Drawer"

                              Tue, August 18, 2009 - 1:45 PM
                              Lenny - Well it did seem like he was being snide but not in a way that was making fun of the cliché talking points of the ID/anti-choice/"death panel" talking points which he trotted out!
                              • Re: Not so "Top Drawer"

                                Tue, August 18, 2009 - 2:19 PM
                                I, being a foreigner, (and having travelled a few continents), with full authority state that the nonsense of ethicity and stem cell research, (including embrionic) only exists in this country.
                                ...
                                I hope, some day, everyone here will grow out of this absurd and will have finally moved on.

                                • Re: Not so "Top Drawer"

                                  Wed, August 19, 2009 - 12:42 PM
                                  Serge - "I hope, some day, everyone here will grow out of this absurd and will have finally moved on."

                                  I agree, it's only damaging America's reputation to be functioning like a theocracy.

                                  While this is now getting off topic for an evolution tribe (so I'm happy to refrain from further discussion if it's inappropriate for this tribe), here's some info on how the ethics of stem cell research is approached in science.

                                  www.unisci.com/stories/20012/0601016.htm

                                  www.stemcells.ca/ethics.html

                                  www.biotechnologyonline.gov.au/hu...tml

                                  I find it very interesting that those who object to stem cell research and abortion on religious grounds never seem to have a problem with fertility clinics in the US that not only destroy embryos but also practice genetic selection.
                              • Re: Not so "Top Drawer"

                                Tue, August 18, 2009 - 9:37 PM
                                Lenny - Well it did seem like he was being snide but not in a way that was making fun of the cliché talking points of the ID/anti-choice/"death panel" talking points which he trotted out>

                                Ad hominem, I made no such references. You can't support your position scientifically so your only recourse is personal attack, I understand that, it is unfortunate, that so many who claim a love for science lack the intellect to understand even the basic concept of the scientific method. But back to the question at hand, which does evolution favor? the embryo or the adult. I think that one can find many examples of animals eating their young, or of sacrificing themselves in favor of their young. I do not see a definitive value by evolution on either the developing young or the breeding adult, but rather that both are used as a part of different strategies. Many creatures give birth to multiple off spring and value them little, some to only a few and value them more then their own life. Most predators on the top of the food chain naturally have few offspring and value them more. However in crowded conditions this value changes and canibalism will become more frequent. One could possibly make the argument that in an over populated condition that evolution favors adults over developing young.
                          • Re: Not so "Top Drawer"

                            Tue, August 18, 2009 - 9:08 PM
                            <John - Clearly you're approaching this from a religious perspective if you think science assigns value to embryo and adult lives based on "more valuable to society" (apparently you've got your "Death Panel" talking points confused with your anti-choice ones) and this is your talking point/belief about science and stem cell research. Since that's the case and you present yourself in this tribe as an anonymous entity with no friends and a big bag of ignorance about and prejudice against science - rather than someone willing to openly stand up for and by their beliefs - I see no point in entering into a discussion with you (or anyone who looks to Palin as their ethical compass) based on orthodox/fundamentalist religious morality (and the desire to control other people's bodies and actions so common amongst orthodox and fundamentalist sects from Christianity to Islam).

                            I must say, I do find it interesting that you're a member of an evolution tribe when you're pushing Christian Fundie talking points which are clearly ignorant regarding science and biology (both integral to the study of evolution).>

                            I can't decide which you display more of here, ignorance of my beliefs or ignorance of science. There is nothing religious about expecting some to qualify the claim that science supports embryonic stem cell research. The choice whether or not to value an embryo as a human being has absolutely nothing to do with science, any choice made is philosophical/religious one. Hiding your religious beliefs behind science makes you no better then a creationist in my book. Now as to my my beliefs, I am prochoice, a biologist, and a christian, and I see no conflict with evolution and the bible, in fact Genesis supports the theory of evolution. In Genesis God gave the command for life to come forth, and to create similar life after its kind and though evolution we see this happening.
      • This post was deleted by Greg

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